ARM APPR, TUNE APPR and ACT APPR on the FMS are no longer active in 1.024

I did a clean install of version 1.024 incl. Visual ext. pack. P3D4.5.
Since then the FMS does not show the ARM APPR on RSK3 of the FMS. TUNE APPR and ACT APPR no longer show up either.
Is this a bug or has this function been omitted?

Comments

  • We would not omit this function with it being a rudimentary aspect of the devices operation during that phase of flight.

    Do you have a particular route that we can test to verify?
  • After the install I did 3 flights in a row with the same problem.
    LOWL to LOWG ILS RWY35C
    LOWG to LHBP ILS RWY13R
    LHBP to LOWW ILS RWY16
    I renamed the attached plightplans from .fpr into .txt to bre able to attach them.

  • edited February 2022

    Strange. I did a flight today LOWW to LSGG and the ARM APPR was back.
    Could this have anything to do with the fact that the previous three flights were pretty short ones? That the aircraft was still in a climb on the moment that ARM APPR should come up? It shouldn't be so, but it's the only thing I can think off.
    I'll give it a try tomorrow. See if it persists.

  • It really should not prevent the functionality as I have conducted one of the 3 flights that you provided without issue.

    If the issue happens again pause the sim, and save the scenario then zip the scenario files and attach them to this thread.

    Thanks
  • I did the LOWL to LOWG flight again. Same date, same weather, same flightplan.
    I had a 50 Nm distance cirkel around LOWG on my chart. No ARM APPR upon entering.
    I continued descend until passing 10,000 ft transition alt. Still no ARM APPR.
    Scenario files are in the attached zip.

  • edited February 2022

    I think I found the problem. When scanning the flightplan I saw that the RWY was not in the list. While planning a new flight I found out. Now I remember that on all three flight (and the one from today), after selecting the STAR it showed:
    ....... . STARNAME and the APPR was all dots. So it did not follow up with selecting the RWY after the STAR. I remember clicking LSK R4 for entering the APPR, which I did.
    This might have caused the RWY being left out of the flightplan on all three plus one flights.
    I see that with 1.024 there is NAVDATA valid until 08-SEP-2021.
    I cancelled my Naviraph subscription after 2101.
    I only do updates from Hervé Sors, but that will work in my EFB but not in the Q400.
    Although this might be 'the smoking gun' on the subject, it should not prevent the FMS from having the ARM APPR function.
    But being a retired software pro I know weird things can happen. ;)

  • Thanks for the feedback, as we have not been able to replicate the issue using the flight plans provided. The NAVDATA that we supply with the installer is usually an older version provided wit the permission of Navigraph. Users can then determine if they want to keep it updated by purchasing updated AIRACs from Navigraph.

    Yes there can certainly be oddities from time to time. I have experienced this issue in the past but it was my fault as I had the ARCDUs incorrectly set (BOTH instead of FMS)

  • Thanks for the reply. I've done some more testing and to me it is almost certain that the navdata file that comes with 1.024 has some data errors that will make the Q400's FMS act the way it does. More specificly, after selecting the STAR. I can reproduce the problem on my system repeatedly, but.... that's my system. ;)

  • Sorry @kroswynd, I'm still having the isseu.

    After a renewal of my Navigraph subscription I'm now on the actual 2201. It seems that the navdata is NOT the problem. I made seven flights since the flight to LSGG when the ACT APPR was suddenly back. But... it never came back after that. All seven flights it wasn't there.
    So... you tested and everything works fine, then it can only be the difference between your hard- and software and mine. I'm on P3Dv4.5 Windows10 (updated). So if you are on v5 and W11... that might be a hint.

    I uninstalled the Q400 and installed it back again with the same unpleasant outcome. My guess is that if the installationfile that I downloaded was corrupted, that then the install would not have worked and ran into an error.

    I sure hope this is not some crazy Windows thing or a compiler error. Please advice.

  • edited February 2022

    Can you please state your routing for the flights and your CRZ level again.
    What is actually displayed on the NAV page when you approach? Can you please take some pictures from different distances?

  • @FraPre
    All routings come from Simbrief. The first 3 after installing 1.024 are as mentioned in my post of Febr. 5th. CRZ levels were on FL150, FL210 and FL200. I retried the first one several times with the same fltplan and level (and outcome). Then on a flight LOWW to LSGG the ARM APPR was back and worked fine FL240. All later flights were within Germany on FL240 or FL250. None of them gave me a ARM APPR. The NAV page on the FMS is just as it should be, only without giving me the ARM APPR at 50 Nm from destination. The 50 Nm mark (checked by a distance cirkel on my map) is during the descend most of the time depending on the altitude constraints in the STAR. Occasionally still on CRZ level when there is a very long STAR like in EDDH.
    It sounds to me pretty useless to tak pics from an FMS that doesn't show anything then what's normal on it besides the missing ARM APPR.
    What I do think that is strange, is that on the first 3 flights and on the repeated flight LOWL to LOWG after selecting the STAR it cursor should move to selecting the RWY for LSK R4 to the left of the point and after that LSK R5 for the RWY, ILS, and TRANS (opt.). That did not happen. It froze after selecting the STAR. But.... all flihts in Germany (later) this anomally did not happen.
    Unfortunately I do not have the 1.021 installation files anymore. Otherwise I would have gone back to that one until someone found the reason for this problem. Maybe it goes away by itself.

  • Hi,

    When you say "All routings come from Simbrief." do you mea,n, that you are loading them in the Q400 or that you are entering them manually from scratch?

    Rgds
    Reinhard

  • Unfortunately, I can't open the txt files or only get a jumble of characters displayed.

  • edited February 2022

    Just read your guess made in another answer that ARM APPR might not appear because you're still climbing. I have to ask here, also because I don't know your routing in its entirety. As far as I know, ARM APPR can only appear from the enroute mode (mode E) of the FMS (display XTK(E) ) NAV page left if the approach geometry is also suitable and a corresponding approach is selected in the FMS. The enroute mode is activated automatically after a direct distance of 30 NM from the start or end of the SID. However, it ends automatically when I am within 30 NM of the direct distance to the destination or on a STAR / APPR transition. Perhaps this circumstance, since the flights are really quite short, meant that ARM APPR could not be effective for you.
    I've looked in my series of pictures, it also works from the terminal mode if you're already on a STAR again, but still have a direct distance of > 50 NM to the destination. But before that I was also in enroute mode!

  • @aua668 The Simbrief downloader puts the fltplns directly in the Q400's Routes directory.
    @FraPre About being in the climb was a wrong assumption on my side as I found out in a later flight on the same route. As I wrote before, I've set a 50 Nm distance cirkel on my chart centered on the destination airport. And I check crossing into that cirkel if the ARM APPR shows on the NAV page, which it does not with only one exception.
    Through the years I've made more than a thousand flights all over the world with the Q400 and before 1.024 the ARM APPR allways worked. It is weird, but I can still fly the bird, not as it should be but no problem.

  • Surprise!!! Today two flights, EDDH to LOWS and LOWS to EDDK and on both the ARM APPR was working normally. So I consider this as SOLVED (for the time being). ;)

  • For you yes, but it would still be interesting to know if it was because of the reasons I mentioned on the short flights where it didn't work. For example, if you can name this again with complete routing (Rwy - SID - Enroute Routing / Airways - STAR - Approach - Rwy) and CRZ level, we can then fly it, or you can fly it again and monitor whether that is the case FMS switches to enroute mode at all during this short distance.
    In real terms, however, the whole thing seems to play a minor or no role. It is neither mentioned nor practiced in the few good cockpit videos nor in the tutorials of real pilots. Here you probably mainly use the auto mode for arm and act.

  • edited February 2022

    This had been a long standing issue for me as well. Most, if not all my routs are short ( <400 nm for most part) and I cant remember the last time 3R LSK had bold letters....
    All my routings come from simbrief using the auto downloader app.

    My latest, if someone is willing to try, is EKCH to EDDC.
    EKCH/22R SIMEG8C SIMEG M736 SALLO M44 KOGIM M725 KOBUS P31 GARKI DCT
    EDDC/22

    Training Add. p3d 5.3
    But as I said, this was happening also on the previous pro version prior to the latest update

  • edited February 2022

    @FraPre I don't know if it has something to do with the length of the route. Just made the flight mentioned by @ha5mvo which was 1 hr 9 min on FL250. This time no ARM APPR @ 50 Nm fm dest. Yesterday's flights were a bit longer 1h25m and 1h17m and with ARM APPR on both.

  • made another try, LCLK to LLBG, this time just entering the route manually. Made no difference.
    Other stuff running at the background (perhaps another program is the culprit...):
    Activesky
    FS2Crew
    pro-atc-x
    Aivlasoft EFB
    aviaserver

  • The best thing to do to rule out a 3rd party addon is to run with out addons. We have done significant testing with Active Sky and we were able to rule it out as a contributing problem.

    I am have not used Aivlasoft in a while and do not have time to get it configured, nor do I use PRO ATX or FS2Crew, but I would suggest that since you are using them you can try to test them and see.

  • If anything, I would think of FS2Crew, provided that the co-pilot then carries out these activities automatically. However, since at least ACT APPR is offered promptly at the end, but is only activated manually / automatically at defined times / flight positions, you should see this on the NAV page for at least a while.
    Please post the pictures of the FMS F/PLN page with the route points after you have left the SID and are at cruising altitude, along with a picture of the NAV page.

  • @kroswynd
    Really? Blaming it on the other add-ons is an old IBM trick I know since the '60s when mixed hardware configurations came in use. I fly the Quality Wings 787 frequently with Active Sky and AivlaSoft and that plane is a hell of a lot more demanding in terms of processor load than the Q400. Especially in densed scenery arrivals over large cities in bad weather. It sometimes stutters, but always works out fine.

    I could be wrong, but my best guess is that the MJC program checks the '50 Nm from destination' mark only once. And when that moment passes by because of system load the program simply 'forgets' to do the ARM APPR subroutine. If this is the case... the program should be (written in plain English):

    • Is the distance from destination <50 Nm
    • if Yes, check the armappr-done flag
    • if that flag has not been set: go for the ARM APPR subroutine and after that set the armappr-done flag.
      The same procedure (with another flag) for the ACT APPR.

    I'll bet a bottle of Veuve clicquot ponsardin that the MJC programmers will find the cause of the problem. This way or another. ;-)

    Cheers.

  • In the rebound.... if there is anyone using PRO-ATC and/or UTLive AND having the same issues, my guess is that this indeed could cause this kind of problems. I never used PRO-ATC because it is not PRO at all (faulty phrasology) and UTLive jumps on and off the bandwagon as it pleases. It's unstable and there is no support for years. I only have the leftovers of it on my system and I do not activate it anymore.

  • edited February 2022

    Hi,

    I am using the Pro version 1.024 with visual enhancement pack on P3D 5.3 HF2. I did now two flights, which I know very well. LOWW to LOWG and LOWW to LSZH. At both flights ARM APPR, etc. did not appear on the FMC. So obviously there has something changed.

    Route LOWW-LOWG: RUPE2B RUPET RUPE2M - FL160 - ILS 34C
    Route LOWW-LSZH: SOVI2B SOVIL DCT SITNI DCT BAGSI DCT MATIG DCT TRAUN L856 NEGRA NEGR2A - FL240 - ILS 14

    Rgds
    Reinhard

  • edited February 2022

    I have been reading this thread, but don't actually have any suggestion, solution or observation to offer as I am not generally in the habit of using this feature. Whether that is correct "pilotage" or not, in the Dash 8, I am not sure, but I still manage to land my aircraft successfully and tend enjoy the challenge of doing so.

    However, out of curiosity, I thought I'd look at the "UNS-1 Operations Manual" to see if anything jumped out about this.

    The page in the screenshot below talks about arming the approach. I have highlighted a note on the page.

    I wondered if this might have something to do with the issue being described here. But, it would appear not as "Advanced EFIS" apparently refers to the type of equipment installed in the aircraft. For example, the document references this as ...

    ILS and RNV Approaches with and without Advanced EFIS Configuration.
    When Aircraft is Equipped with Collins Advanced EFIS (C-14, E-4, etc.) and APS-85 Autopilot (or similar equipment from other manufactures)...

    I note from this thread that in our Q400 the Arm Approach does work (sometimes), whereas the UNS manual says it will not appear at all, and the approach cannot ever be activated, if the aircraft does not have this equipment type. Nevertheless, I thought I'd post this as it may spark a suggestion or a thought process in someone.
    .

    Arm-Approach

  • @freddy
    To be honest, I do click the ARM APPR when available but have allways manually selected NAV1+NAV2 (when ILS) and APPR on the AFCS panel. Most of the time before the FAF. It's only when there was a sudden wind change that I needed the TUNE APPR which will only appear when ARM APPR had been selected. I checked with a real life pro who have flown the Q400 and they do it in the same manner most of the time. Since most of the Q400's in Europe have been replaced by Embraers I wonder where the Q400 still fly, but who cares? It's a nice plane, a challenge to land, but I'll manage to do <100 fpm landings frequently. ;)

  • Yep, I do exactly as you do ... manually select NAV1+NAV2 (when ILS) and APPR on the AFCS panel, most of the time before the FAF. The aircraft will automatically arm or activate the approach for you as you near the destination, assuming you do everything else correctly and meet the waypoints as published etc.

    Dash 8 400s are certainly flown still in many countries. As an Australian, I see them frequently here for example, as they are a big part of our National airline, Qantas.

    Anyway, back to the thread ... :smile:

  • As I already wrote, you can use the whole thing, but you probably don't have to, there are alternatives, and in videos you can see that it often doesn't matter.
    I fly a lot of RNAV approaches and as far as I can remember I've never had any problems with this topic.

    @Captain45
    Some remaining Dash 8 carriers are e.g.

    Alaska Airlines
    AirCanada
    Porter Airlines
    LOT
    Croatian Airlines
    Olympic Airlines
    Wideroe
    Luxair
    Icelandair
    Spicejet
    Ethiopian Airlines
    Quantas
    All Nippon Airways

  • Hi,

    Of course you can set the approach frequency manually. That's what I do in most of the cases anyhow. But one problem arises, if the approach gets not activated: The Missed Approach can also not be initiated as this command option was also not shown on my last two flights. Never had this before the last update.

    Rgds
    Reinhard

  • edited February 2022

    Hi,

    I did two more flights LOWW-LOWG. And in both fligts no ARM APPR etc. shown.
    I also did reinstall the latest Navigraph AIRAC again, to be sure that everything is actual. But no change,

    I noticed one interesting thing: I installed the Q400 via the 1.024 installers from Simmarket. But interestingly the ISI shows version 1.023B. Not sure if this is correct ?!?

    Rgds
    Reinhard

  • edited February 2022

    @aua668

    Yes, that's correct. Install v1.024 will show as 1.023B on the ISI.

    I got my v1.024 installer from Majestic's User Area and I am seeing the same thing.

    From memory, full install version 1.021 showed as 1.020B on the ISI. I am not sure why they display/show a number below the actual patch or install version number, but that's apparently what they do. (I wonder if 1.023B is actually the "Beta" number, and once the product is tested and ready to be released to market, they merely forget to update that number? I know this happens at the IT company I work for :smile: )

  • @aua668 - what Edition of the Q400 are you using?
    Pilot or PRO?

  • @freddy said:
    @aua668

    Yes, that's correct. Install v1.024 will show as 1.023B on the ISI.

    I got my v1.024 installer from Majestic's User Area and I am seeing the same thing.

    From memory, full install version 1.021 showed as 1.020B on the ISI. I am not sure >why they display/show a number below the actual patch or install version number, >but that's apparently what they do. (I wonder if 1.023B is actually the "Beta" >number, and once the product is tested and ready to be released to market, they >merely forget to update that number? I know this happens at the IT company I work >for :smile: )

    We've forgot to change it, the correct version can still be visible in the index.html

  • The approach prompt bug was identified, and the fix will appear in the upcoming patch. For the time being, if you see the FMS not showing the prompt for a particular approach, do not select the STAR via the FMS. If the STAR is not automatically added to the flight plan, the FMS approach prompts will be shown correctly

  • > @kroswynd said:
    > @aua668 - what Edition of the Q400 are you using?
    > Pilot or PRO?

    Pro Version.
    Rgds
    Reinhard
  • @Boss said:
    We've forgot to change it, the correct version can still be visible in the index.html

    👍

  • @Boss Thank you for the info on the upcoming patch to fix the problem. "do not select the STAR via the FMS" sounds a bit strange to me. The 50 Nm mark is within the STAR most of the time (and during the descent). My rough guess is that if you skip the STAR and only select the RWY and ILS/RNAV APPR, the darn thing will not fly the STAR either. In real life ATC would have most certainly something against that. ;-)

  • @Captain45 said:
    @Boss Thank you for the info on the upcoming patch to fix the problem. "do not select the STAR via the FMS" sounds a bit strange to me. The 50 Nm mark is within the STAR most of the time (and during the descent). My rough guess is that if you skip the STAR and only select the RWY and ILS/RNAV APPR, the darn thing will not fly the STAR either. In real life ATC would have most certainly something against that. ;-)

    Hi,

    You can enter the waypoints of the STAR manually. I assume, that this was meant as an interim alternative until the patch is available. So you can fly the STAR, if cleared by ATC.

    Rgds
    Reinhard

  • Hi,

    Is there any chance getting that fix for this failure?

    Rgds
    Reinhard

  • @aua668

    Pushing a single fix would be a bit on the non-productive side as there several other fixes that need to be addressed. While I do not have a time frame on the next update it is certainly in the works.

    Cheers

  • Hi,

    Xmas is coming and I have a wish, that the fix for that annoying problem is under my tree ;)

    Any chance?

    Rgds
    Reinhard

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